[Music] Hello everyone. Thank you for joining me for another episode of the Plant Free MD. I’m your host, Dr. Anthony Chaffy. Today I have a very special guest uh uh Jenny Mitch who is um joining us here from Chicagoland. Jenny, thank you so much for uh coming on the show. Thank you so much for having me. Happy to be here. Yeah. Well, for people who don’t know you, haven’t come across you before, can you please tell us a bit about you? Yeah, sure. So, I’ve been doing the carnivore diet for almost 3 years in December. And I have a YouTube channel. I do carnivore educational content over there. Lots of N of one experiments on myself and my husband and lots of carnivore recipes. Um, so that’s kind of the the the short story. Um, I could talk a little bit about how I got into carnivore if you’d like, please. Yeah. Yeah. So, my husband was the one that actually found the carnivore diet. He found Dr. Ken Barry on YouTube, as many of us do. And um at first, well, he told me about it because he wanted us to do it together. Um it’s so much easier when you’re doing things as a couple. And at the time, I had gained 70 lbs. Um I was when I was pregnant with my twins, I was having a hard time losing that extra weight. So, I’d only lost, I don’t know, maybe like 15 lbs, 20 lbs at that point. And I was just like, there’s absolutely no way the carnivore diet can be healthy. How are you getting all of the vitamins and minerals you need only eating meat and all that stuff that I used to used to think? I think a lot of people think that when they come to carnivore. Um, but I continued to watch the videos with him. So, over the next six months, I I continued watching the videos and decided, you know what? I think I’m going to give this a try. Um, I actually started the carnivore diet before my husband did, which is so funny because he’s the one that brought it brought it to me. Um, but the first month I lost eight pounds and I saw a significant drop in my glucose levels. I had been wearing a continuous glucose monitor for fun because I’m I’m a big data nerd. Um, and my average glucose before was in the low 100s, but when I did carnivore for just a month, it went down into the 80s. Nice. Um, yeah. And that was enough of kind of enough of a like, wo, is there’s something here for me to continue doing it. And now, like I said, almost three years and uh now YouTube is my full-time job uh teaching other people how to do carnivore. Great. And so what are some of the other results? I mean, so you you started losing a bit of weight, your blood sugar normalized pretty rapidly. um what are some of the other health benefits that you’ve seen and sort of maybe over the course of three years? What are what are sort of the the things you’ve seen uh overall? Yeah. Yeah, definitely. So, um I’ve lost a total of 50 pounds so far since the beginning. Yeah. Um I have seen huge improvements in my mental health. So, I used to have uh hardcore anxiety and depression since I was like 13. I self-medicated in my teens and 20s, drugs and alcohol. um had gotten clean, but still had some anxiety um and depression stuff. That is completely gone. Completely. I I don’t even think about it anymore. It’s just not part of my life. That was a huge deal. Um I’ve I’ve seen a lot of improvements um just with like skin, um oral health. Um definitely put on a lot more muscle. It’s easier to do so when you’re working out in the gym. I’m I’m definitely a little bit more stacked than I was obviously. uh you know, lost 50 pounds, too. But uh yeah, those are the those are the big ones that I noticed. Yeah. Well, and also I mean, if you lost 50 pounds and you put on muscle, you probably lost maybe 60 lb, 70 lbs of fat and put on, you know, 10 20 pounds of muscle, too. That happens. That happens a lot. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that’s I’ I’ve seen that actually, especially when people are exercising and and they sort of hit a weight loss stall and they’re worried that they’re not losing weight as as quickly or maybe not losing weight at all, but but they’re exercising four days a week, they’re lifting weights, they’re sprinting, they feel good, their clothes are fitting more loosely, they they’re cinched up their belt to notches, but the weight on the scale is the same. And that’s that’s usually what’s happening is they’re offsetting the fat that they’re losing with the muscle that they’re gaining. And so the the scale stays the same as well, which is good. And yeah, I I I the scale is like the worst measurement tool in our arsenal. You know, I like what you said about the clothes are fitting looser. That’s really what I’m looking for. You know, if stuff is starting to fit better. And then I also get a lot of DEXA scans just because I’m always doing one experiments on myself. So, it’s really interesting to see like am I losing fat or am I losing lean mass, which isn’t just muscle in a DEXA scan, as you know. Um, but it’s really really interesting to to see those numbers. Yeah, definitely. I mean, I I’ve um well, there are studies showing that too that that people on ketogenic diets versus other diets that they can lose maybe more weight on a on a ketogenic diet or maybe similar weights, but when you look at the breakdown in body composition, they’re losing a lot more fat on a ketogenic diet and they’re actually gaining muscle, but so the total weight loss may be similar, but it’s actually much more fat loss and actually muscle gain or or um lean body mass gain, right? and and the other ones they will have lost this much weight, call it 20 pounds, but actually four of those pounds were lean body mass. And so that’s actually not very clever. You know, you don’t want to lose that. So I I think that, you know, when people talk about wanting to lose weight, what they’re really saying is they want to lose fat, not just weight. If you’re losing a bunch of lean mass, it’s defeating the purpose because you’re less healthy. So it’s the fat. We want to get rid of the fat. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And that and that’s why they have to like the OMIC commercials have to be very careful about their wording. It says, “Oh, if you want to lose weight, you can lose this weight blah blah blah blah blah.” They can’t because 40% of that weight is going to be lean body mass. Yeah. Well, especially if you’re not watching your protein and doing strength training and taking really high doses. Yeah. Exactly. And um Yeah. And and I think that’s the main one, too, because people are just taking the drug and they say, “Oh, I can just eat and do whatever.” and you just give me a medication that will allow me to be slim and healthy even though I have all these bad habits and that’s that’s just not going to happen. And so they they don’t actually get any training on how to change their eating habits and and actually a lot of times their eating habits get worse because they can’t eat much. They feel sick all the time. So they just eat a bit of candy and sweets and things like that to give them like a quick hit of energy because they don’t feel very good and energized and so they end up eating worse overall and they can get loss of lean body mass, loss of health certainly lose their hair, lose their vision, other sorts of things and then when they they sort of come off the ompic or they um it stops working for them or something like that then all of a sudden they have even worse eating habits and they end up regaining more fat than the total weight that they lost and the weight was that lean body mass. They don’t regain that lean body mass. And so maybe they lost 50 lbs of fat, 20 lbs of lean body mass, but then they regain 80 regained 80 pounds of just fat. And so it’s actually worse off than when they started, unfortunately. Exactly. Yeah. the the conventional dosaging and the lack of dietary advice and uh and advice on movement with just how most people are taking the GLP ones are it’s yeah it’s really bad. Yeah, I have seen some people take smaller doses, even like micro doses, even like diabetic doses or or lower, and that can help with the sort of the cravings early on and and sort of getting onto a good diet and that that can help be like a bridge uh to get people to be able to stick with like a carnivore diet or something like that. But that, you know, the the cravings, as as you know, uh they go away pretty quickly. you know, after, you know, sort of a couple weeks, your carb cravings, sugar cravings tend to go away on their own. If as long as you’re eating enough, you’re getting enough uh proteins and fats and things like that, then your your cravings will sort of be gone. And so, really, you just need something that well, you can just sort of push through it and that’s what a lot of people do. If you are if you just can’t do that and you wanted some like lowd dose micro dose of something like ompic and you can use other things. There’s fentamine, there’s metformin, there’s a lot of other things that people actually use traditionally for exactly that as a short-term sort of suppressing of those of those um cravings and but then after 2 3 weeks you really don’t need this stuff. So either way you know you shouldn’t think about this as like a long-term solution even at a micro dose. is just sort of okay, three weeks to get me on board and then I just the diet’s going to take me the rest of the way. Yeah. And I think, you know, don’t start with the drug. You start with the diet and the movement and then if you need to dial things in down the road after trying everything else because it’s also very expensive. So, yeah, cost prohibitive and and yeah, it’s something to be careful with. But yeah, my my uh my thoughts on that have evolved over the past year just because I’ve I’ve gone to like the Symposium for Metabolic Health. There were a few uh practitioners that were talking about using it with their patients. Um but very specific cases, lower doses monitored closely with a ketogenic the therapeutic ketogenic diet, high protein and lots of strength training. And I think when you pair it that way and it’s kind of a last resort, it can be really positive. But that’s just not how most people are doing it. So yeah, exactly. I mean, and that’s the thing. Most clinicians aren’t aren’t looking at that way either. They’re not looking at medicine and medications as an adjunct and something to aid and help benefit, you know, the overall treatment plan. It’s the it is the treatment plan. It’s the entire treatment plan. And if it if it doesn’t work, then just up the dose, you know, just keep just keep cranking it up, you know, like Yeah. Which is so wild. Yeah, it is. I can’t even imagine. I can’t even imagine. But that’s how we treat everything else. You know, you have high blood pressure, we put you on a medication. Oops, not high enough. Here’s some more medication. you know, you have diabetes, your blood sugars comes down but not down far enough. Oh, here’s some more medication. And so, like lose, you know, here’s you’re overweight, here’s some Osmpic, not losing it fast enough, here’s some more ompic, you know, it’s it’s not it’s not it’s not a good way to practice medicine. It’s not looking at at the patient as a whole. You’re treating symptoms. um you’re matching problems with drugs and you’re not actually looking at why is the person sick in the first place because that matters because we’re not actually supposed to be sick. You know, the idea that well, you know, if we live long enough then you’re just going to get all these problems and diseases and things like that. It’s just previously we didn’t see all these because we we see the risk just going up radically. Well, we just didn’t live long enough before to have these things like yes we did. That’s that’s stupid. Yeah, the the life expectancy in the 1970s was basically exactly the same as it is now. So why why were the rates, you know, fraction of what they are today back in the 1970s? You can’t blame that one on just not living long enough. Um now people are getting diabetes and cancers and other issues, autoimmunity and younger and younger decades of life. Dementia, younger younger decades of life. So heart disease and all these sorts of things. It’s it’s it’s getting more prevalent in younger populations. around the world, you know, I mean, I have I have friends that that are doing um studies in India, largely vegetarian population and their B12 is almost non-existent. Their homocyine is skyh high, which can actually predispose you to developing aththeroscllerotic plaques because high homoysteine damages the linings of your arteries and can cause plaques. And they’re finding that most of these people have normal or even ideal LDL and cholesterol, but they’re having but you’re having a 22-year-old having a massive STEMI heart attack or stroke, you know. Uh he as young as a 17-year-old boy had a heart attack, vegetarian, you know, traditional vegetarian diet, had a had a massive heart attack, had to go to get stances and things like that at 17, right? That’s insane. Yeah. So like saying that well people died in their 30s so obviously we didn’t say 17 is is well under 35 and so and also people you know average life expectancy from birth was 38 in the 1850s in America but average life expectancy from 10 years old if you made it to 10 years old was 60 right because infant mortality was so high. So if you made it to adulthood, you typically you would live as long as as we do now. And these native populations, the hunter gatherers, we we know in anthropology textbooks right now, people can read this in in the modern literature that they live the infant mortality rate high, but when people die of old age, it’s as high or higher than than modern population. So the modal age is much higher. and they don’t die of chronic disease, they don’t get heart disease, they don’t get cancer, they don’t get autoimmunity, they don’t get diabetes, even though they’re living into their 70s, 80s, 90s and beyond. And until and unless they go to western a more western diet sort of way of living and then that switches and then all of a sudden all these chronic diseases become the main health issue that they face. And um so yeah, we’re we’re it’s it’s right there in front of our face and as clinicians, we should be the ones seeing this and pointing this out to our patients. And unfortunately, it’s usually the patients pointing it out to the the clinicians. And then a fraction of those clinicians are getting woken up by this, like Dr. David Unwin, who sort of got slapped in the face by one of his patients saying, you know, why didn’t you ever tell me that carbohydrates turn into sugar in the body? I have diabetes. that’s a problem with with blood sugar, you know, like what the hell are you doing here? And he was just like, “Oh, Jesus.” Okay. And all this other sort of stuff. And she came off all her medication. He actually brought her in to admonish her for not taking her her diabetes medication. She said, “I haven’t taken my diabetes medication in a year because I haven’t had diabetes for a year. My blood sugar’s been completely normal this whole time just by eliminating carbohydrates, which you should have told me about.” He was like, “Damn it. All right.” And he’s looked into it. There’s a lot there. So, well, at least he woke up cuz a lot of clinicians um out there, they they hear that all the time and they don’t. But, you know, thank God that some of them do cuz that’s how we all are here now. Yeah. Exactly. And and I think that I think that a lot of people do uh look at it like that. They have they have patients that come in and and um have some dramatic change and um and they want to know my my mom’s doctor was like that. She reversed her diabetes in two months by just doing carnivore and came off all of her medications and insulin and things like that in two months. And her doctor said, you know, this doesn’t happen. You know, you don’t just reverse diabetes. You know, type two diabetes is is a progressive chronic disease. It only gets worse. We can mitigate it and slow it down with medications, diet, and lifestyle, but it it only gets worse. So, how the hell did you do this? What the hell did you do? And um you know, she’s a bright lady. She has MD PhD from Harvard. She has PhD in biochemistry, MD from Harvard as well. And um and and so she was just like, “Okay, this is different. Why is this different?” And she told her about what what we were doing and what my sort of thoughts on this were. And she was like, “Okay, I’d really like to take a look at at at that and and talk to him about it.” And we had this hour and a half long conversation about this. And and uh at the end of it, she was just like, “Right, yeah. All right. Well, we’re we’re doing this. We’re making these changes and this that and the other.” And it was just and it just was um it was very you know uh well it was just very nice to see that you know she was very interested like yeah this is you know because she really did care about her patients and and she was was bright enough to say hey look that’s abnormal and I’m not just going to you know just throw that off and ah it’s just a fluke right when you see something like that massive like you can’t just chalk chalk it up to a fluke you need to investigate about why that is and and if they’re doing something different it’s just one different okay then you need to take that seriously and look into it and and um and think about it. For instance, I have a patient. She has multiple scerosis and she was um you know on medications for this and but she was and she was okay but she was getting worse and as people with MS do and um she went carnivore very strict just beef and water and she started feeling a lot better and started doing a lot better and so she went to her neurologist and said hey I want to come off my medication. I’m feeling better. I’m doing this carnivore diet. It’s helped a lot of people with MS and other autoimmunity and so I’m feeling better and I want to come off. and he just said, “That’s a horrible idea. You’re being reckless with your health. You’re going to end up in a wheelchair and you’re going to die.” And she was very worried about that. She was actually left there in tears. He was very, very abrupt and and aggressive with her. And that sort of made her even more resolved to not take the medication and just prove him wrong. And um which can be a dangerous thing to do. You know, you don’t you want to necessarily do something like that. Um but she was already feeling better. She had already seen her her clinic she had already clinically started to improve and other people had done this and so she wanted to um try coming off of it. So she came off of it and she and she just kept improving. She did not get worse. The thing is too is you can try all these things off and if you get a flare up and things get worse go back on the medication. Go right back on the meds. Yeah. Exactly. And so she just got better and better and better. Eight months later, she went in for an an MRI off all medications, and her MRI showed a 40% reduction in her lesions, in her MS lesions, which has never been shown in the literature. I’ve never I’ve never even seen a case report of that happening. All the med all the trials on medications are, okay, let’s do this for 18 months and see if this reduces new lesions. Not will this reduce lesions, but reduce new lesions, the onset of new lesions, and things like that. And that’s how we that’s how we um grade a new drug on if it okay like this drug on average people just get four new lesions in an 18month peri. Oh, this one only did three. Ooh, that’s really good. Right. No one is reversing this. No one is reversing it. Hers reversed by by 40%. And her neurologist said, “I can’t explain this. I’ve never seen this happen. I’ve never even heard of this happening. I I don’t know what’s going on here.” And she said, ‘Well, do you think it might be that diet I was telling you about? Absolutely not. It was like, yeah, it’s right there for you, you know. Well, it’s just sometimes people, especially doctors, just because they’ve received so much training and they are just incredibly smart, you know, in general, it’s hard for them to get past that roadblock. It’s really, really, really hard. And I get it. It can be a bit dogmatic at times, but for the few that are able to overcome that, it that shouldn’t have worked. it can’t work and they can get past it, man. I mean, because that doctor, if he could get he or she could get past it, they could write her story as a case study and get it in the literature because that is remarkable. And then other people might be able to see that and and try the same thing and reverse theirs as well. Yeah. Well, we’re doing a case series on this. We have like 12 people that reversed their MS and shrunk their lesions and things like that. And we could have done it with 50, you know, or more, but it’s um, you know, that’s a good tight number to to get some attention anyway. and um you know so hopefully that will be that will raise a lot of eyebrows because it it is massively um impactful and and it’s it’s different. It’s not something that people thought would be possible. This is basically a fatal disease for a lot of people especially for like you know the very aggressive like primary progressive sort of cases and things like that and then they’re shrinking these lesions down. when they’re having normal lives and you know if you have a clear diagnosis note this is this is true MS you know this that was a real diagnosis it’s not like oh because that’s the first thing they’ll say that wasn’t a real MS diagnosis first or something like that but you know we have this you we have neurologists and radiologists showing like nope this is a this is a real diagnosis and um and then afterwards now we’re seeing improvement and so this is a regression of this and that’s that’s something new so that’s um that’s pretty exciting uh to see And then hopefully we can get that to this neurologist and say like look it’s not going to hurt your patients. You know you have all your nutrients. There’s nothing harmful here. Um you know saturated fat does not cause heart disease. Cholesterol does not cause heart disease. And um we know that there’s randomized control trials proving that meta analyses and umbrella reviews of those meta analyses of randomized control trials proving that. And so you’re not going to cause harm. So first do no harm and this could help. And and who knows, maybe it helps. And if it doesn’t, who cares? You have the medication. Right. Right. But you put them on with the medication, see what happens. And and just eating beef and water or ruminants and and water is nothing. You know, it’s simple. It’s easy to do. It’s delicious. And it’s not super expensive. I mean, how much are these medications? Oh god. They thousands a month. I mean, they can be very very exp. Well, depending on what you’re getting, what what autoimmune issue you can have, but it can be thousands a month. Yeah. Absolutely. Right. Right. And you’re not going to spend that much on meat. So, I mean, worth a shot. MS is a horrible, devastating uh disease. So, I mean, if I if I was suffering from it, I mean, I am already doing carnivore, but if I wasn’t, I would get I would try anything, you know. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Very very motivated when you’re in that situation. Um, and sometimes people don’t want to know about it too because say like, “Hey, look, I reverse my MS. You could do this, too.” No, look, I’m going to listen to my doctor. My doctor says I need to do this. And that’s and that’s very reasonable. Um, but you know, if it’s something that you can add on, it’s not it’s not either or. Something you can add on with it and it’s not going to hurt you. We know that. And um, you never know, maybe it makes you better. And if it doesn’t, great. You’re still doing the medication. You’re not you’re not stopping it, right? And and you know and a lot of doctors will say it’s like okay well if I change my diet will that no diet won’t have any effect. Okay well what does that mean? It won’t have any negative effect either because if they say well no no you definitely won’t want to eat red meat because that’ll make it worse. Okay well then you have to sort of weigh that up on what what they’re what they are basing that off of and what we’re basing that off of. But most doctors say yeah diet has no plays no role here. Okay. Well then changing your diet is not going to make it worse anyway. Right. Um some people will say you want you want to avoid red meat or something like that. based on no evidence. And then you ask them, okay, well, what’s that evidence for? Is there is there is there a randomized control trial showing that that consumption of red meat makes MS worse? Well, no. I just I just think that it’s bad and it can increase Well, they’re just they’re just paring the very limited amount of nutritional training they received in medical school, 20 hours or less. Yeah, exactly. They want they want to sound useful, so they want to say something authoritatively like, “Oh, yeah. Well, we all know red meat’s bad, so don’t eat that.” It’s like, “Okay, is there a study showing that red meat makes MS worse? No. Okay. So, then we’ll ignore that, you know. So, yeah. Um, so I was going to say too, what what are some of the NF1 studies that you’ve been doing as well? Um, oh man, I’ve done so many. So, I’ve done a lot of sardine related. So, I’ve done like seven, 10, 14 day sardine fasts where that’s all I ate. I did before and after blood work and DEXA scans just to see what would happen. Um, very interesting visceral fat loss on a sardine fast. It’s basically a protein sparing modified fast. Mhm. very very fast. I think I got my visceral fat down to half a pound. Went It went down half a pound in 10 days. It was amazing. Um I’ve done a 14-day carnivore bar experiment where I only ate carnivore bars for 14 days. Mhm. That one was interesting. Um I had some unexpected data that came up uh results I should say that came up. Um that one I didn’t lose as much fat. I actually lost a little bit more lean mass. So that was interesting. Um, I don’t know if you remember when the sugar diet was all the rage a couple months ago. Um, I did the sugar diet for eight days and did before and after blood work, dexis scan, and continuous glucose monitoring. That was insane. Uh, never again. Was terrible. I actually gained like five or six pounds. I have an autoimmune condition. I have Hashimoto’s. So, uh, sugar and and ultrarocessed like candies and fruit are just they’re really not great for me. My glucose was so crazy. Um, but a lot of people in the community, the carnivore community were curious about it and talking about it and I that’s just that’s what I do. I I experiment on myself and and I share the data so that people don’t have to and uh I’m I’m happy I did it but never again. Um I just recently did a raw dairy experiment because a lot of the people um influencers and educators in the space talk about how raw dairy is not as inflammatory for people with autoimmune conditions. But that’s just I I’d only heard it. I hadn’t really seen any data behind it. So, I um paired up with a with a raw dairy provider and started experimenting with that. And I actually saw my um TPO and thyrolylobulin antibodies go down. Cool. And I have not been able to eat dairy in a very long time. So, that was awesome because I love it. I love dairy. I want my carnivore ice cream. Um so, that was a really fun one and I’ve got I’ve got some more in the works. Um, it’s just it’s I love learning. I’m very curious. I read voraciously. Um, my degree is in management and finance, but I’ve been studying nutrition and uh, health and wellness since 2016, I believe, just for fun, you know. Um, and I I just I find it endlessly fascinating the the human body and and how you react to certain things and how different yet how similar we all are as humans. Um, so it’s it’s fun. Yeah. Very good. Did you? So the the sort of the correlary to the the sugar diet would be like fat fasting sort of thing because what what they’ve sort of found there’s a recent study that came out that showed just basically if you get your protein below 9% calories uh total calories that will trigger FGF-21 which will increase lipolysis by 400 kilo calories a day. Um, so if you’re going in the sugar diet, even though your insulin is so high, that will normally block lipolysis. The FGF-21 can actually override that. So for some people, they can they can actually lose that. Of course, you’re going to be malnourished. Um, you can get all the vitamins and minerals and proteins and fats that you actually need. Um, you know, bit of protein, but you certainly won’t get the fat. And there they’re essential fatty acids that you have to have or you get sick and die. And definitely fats soluble vitamins that you lose out when you don’t have those. And um obviously all the glycation damage, the damage from fructose, the frucation damage that that will build up over time. Um so even if you lose a bit of fat early on, that doesn’t necessarily mean that’s going to translate to long-term health and and certainly won’t in my opinion. But they found in studies that you can you can play around with the with the macros in other ways. As long as you keep the the protein below 9% total calories that even if you have high high fat, low carb, no carb, that will still trigger FGF-21 and you’ll get an know additional 400 kilo calories of of lipolysis. The benefit of doing that with fat is that a it’s actual food. You’re getting actual nutrition, but also you’re in ketosis. And we’ve actually known that ketosis puts you increases your basil metabolic rate by 350 kilo calories. So instead of getting just 400 kilo calories of of lipolysis, you’re getting 750 um kilo calories of increased lipolysis by doing it with a ketogenic state and you’re getting nutrition. Um so did you ever try the the that side of it, like a fat fast, 90% of your calories from fat sort of thing? Um no, not yet. I mean the carnivore bar experiment was kind of like that. Um, but I Yeah, cuz it’s like 35 gram of fat and 20 grams of protein per bar, but I don’t think it was low enough to hit the 9% threshold. Um, honestly, when I’m thinking about it, um, I would prefer to do the the highfat, low protein, low carb just because my glucose wouldn’t be all over the place. My I would be much happier. I wouldn’t feel like crap all the time. So, yeah. I mean, it’s definitely um something I’ve thought about, but I also don’t really like to keep my protein super low just because I’m strength training a lot and I really prioritize protein. For my carnivore diet, I probably do like 65% fat to 35% protein uh most days. Sometimes I go a little higher, sometimes I go a little lower, but I just I just I I don’t know. I’m 41. I don’t really I just don’t want to lose my lean mass, you know? So doing that for an extended period of time, I think it’d be interesting, but I just I’m kind of over it, you know what I mean? Like there’s got to be a line in these experiments where I’m just like, okay, I’m te, you know, I’m educating people in a way, but also I need to like take care of my own health. Mhm. Yeah. You know. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that’s the main thing is just you you eat I I don’t think of it as like, well, you have to have this much fat and that it’s just you need enough fat, you need enough protein. Yeah, I mean these are nutrients. You do have a specific requirement for fat and protein, but fat and protein, I mean, those are the the least part of the whole equation. It’s it’s the vitamins and nutrients and minerals, the peptides, the enzymes that come with fat and protein and and that whole food, you know, meal to you that that um that is going to be provide proper health, right? And it’s so it’s not just it’s not just your macros, you know, just having that, but just everything that comes with that. And so, but you just need enough fat. And I I usually typically like say that well, you know, our body has a limited capacity to absorb fat. And so, I don’t I don’t think that our body’s guessing. I think our body’s pretty pretty damn clever. And it keeps everything really um, you know, in very strict homeostatic, you know, relationships. And if you have, you know, you have five organs all working together just to absorb fat, I don’t think there’s an accident about how much fat it wants you to absorb if there is a limit. And so I just say, okay, just keep eating fat until you can’t absorb it. If you can’t absorb it, it’ll go out and that’ll give you soft stools. Eventually give you loose stools. So eat enough fat that you get soft stools. Don’t get loose stools. And that’s if you’re not drinking coffee, tea, artificial sweeteners, magnesium, metformin, all these other things that can speed things along. And um so eat as much fat as your body wants to absorb and then get enough lean meat that your body, you know, that tastes good that your body says, “Yeah, that’s enough.” Because your body tells you when it stops tasting good that it’s just bland and miserable that you’re like stop eating it. I have not counted a single calorie, not counted a single macro in nearly a decade. And um I you know stay lean and healthy and I feel great. All my blood work is is optimal. And um and that’s what I think is is you know a good way of doing it. And if you want to sort of game the system and you sort of play around with your okay well maybe I’ll eat more fat and do this if I want to lose fat faster. You can do that, but you know, realistically, you want to get on something that is just healthy and stable and you’re giving your body what it needs long term. You can do the exact same thing now as you do in 30 years from now, and you’ll get, you know, be able to maintain the same results. I think that’s probably a good way to do it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I I I try to eat intuitively most of the time. I do um track a bit. I’m not religious about it, but with the experiments that I’m doing, I like to have because some, you know, people love numbers. They love to know exactly what you’re doing because they want to do it, too. I’m like, listen, I’m not you and you’re not me. You know, we’re going to have slightly different different needs and goals. But yeah. Yeah. I think in the beginning for sure, um, if somebody’s coming to carnivore, just eat intuitively. Eat until you’re full. Exactly what you just said. Give it 90 days and just let your body get adjusted. And for most people, that’s enough. And then after that period of time, if you’ve been really strict with it and you’re not seeing results, there’s tweaks you can make. There’s lots of things you can dial in. Um, but you got to give your body enough time to get used to it. And in most cases, the the human body wants what you’re giving it when you’re giving it the protein and the fats. It craves it, so it’ll just it’ll everything will adjust. In some cases, no, but I think in most cases, yes. Yeah. Hey guys, just want to take a second to thank our sponsor, Carnivore Bar. I don’t promote many products because honestly all you need to be healthy is to just eat meat. But for those times that you’re out hiking, road tripping, or stuck at work and you want nutritious snack that is just meat, fat, and salt if you want it, the Carnivore Bar is a great option. So I like this product not because it’s just pure meat, but also because I want the carnivore market to thrive as well. And the more we support meatonly products, the more meatonly products there will be available in the mainstream. So, if this sounds like something you’d like to get behind, check it out using my discount code, Anthony, to get 10% off, which also applies to subscriptions, giving you 25% off total. All right, thanks, guys. And and you know, and that’s the thing, too. I mean, a nice thing about these end of ones is that um anyone can do them, and if you’re not getting quite the results that you expect or you want, play around with things, you know, you can you can sort of touch things up and and see how you go and see how you react. Um sometimes people get that’s the other thing too is is that some people um get very focused on on one angle like like weight loss and sometimes that’s a bit slower for some people and there’s metabolic issue. I measure people’s numbers. They have insulin resistance. They have leptin resistance. They have other sort of, you know, metabolic sort of well signs that their their metabolism is very slow. And you but you check them again in 2 months and those things have already started to improve. And so they improve improve improve improve improve and all of a sudden the metabolism is better and then weight just starts falling off of them. And this is something we’ve seen in the carnivore community going back, you know, 30 years that some people just have a slower time at weight loss or a slower burn and their sort of their metabolism’s heal healing, their hormones are getting improving and then after a certain amount of time when their metabolism gets in order, all of a sudden it just starts shedding off their body and and starts losing weight quite rapidly like you would have seen and others have seen as well. Um, and that’s okay. Um, but in that time people can get pretty frustrated because they’re like, “I I started this for the weight loss and I really want to do that. I I spoke with one lady and I see this all the time that they say, “Well, I really wish that carnivore worked for me because I felt so much better and I came off my blood pressure medication. I came off my autoimmune medication. You know, my skin got better, my hair got better, this got better, that got better, but I just didn’t lose weight. So, I guess it didn’t work for me.” I was like, “Right, sounds like it was working pretty well.” Yeah. It sounds like it was working great. Sounds like it was working great. Yeah. Yeah. And Yeah. Just And sometimes people just aren’t a bit, you know, giving it a long enough. And then I asked her like, “What exactly are you eating?” And it turns out she was still using artificial sweeteners and other sorts of things. So she, you know, could have easily been stalled from that as well. Well, and I think that’s why you, as you mentioned, you do a lot of testing because if we’re just looking at the scale or just looking at the measurement, you know, waist and hip and belly and all that stuff, there’s there’s only so much you can see there. Um, I really like looking under the hood. I do blood work on myself like once a month just because of these experiments and stuff, but I think people should be testing. If you’re in a in a trying to lose weight, trying to improve your metabolic health, you have to have some data points, you know? So, every three months, every six months, I don’t know. How often do you test in your practice with your patients? Um, yeah, typically like if I have a new new patient that comes in, you know, we’ll do a series of of tests um straight away. We might do a lot of blood tests and dexis can get a baseline. Get a baseline. Exactly. Then we start, you make some interventions and specific recommendations for them and their situation. Um, it almost always incorporates a carnivore diet. Always incorporates a carnivore diet, but you know, might the other other sorts of things as well. the diet does 95% of the work and we sort of fill in the gaps with other sorts of things and then I generally check about two months later and and look for you know what what progress you made and it have dramatic improvements. You’ll get you’ll get changes before that. I mean I had a lady that um sort of read the instructions uh wrong and and got it like a month later instead of like two months later two 3 months later but even then her her insulin had dropped in half. Her leptin started coming down. her um her blood sugar had improved like all these other sorts of things had started getting better and better and better. So all you know vitamins, minerals, nutrients, all these things started you know coming up and uh on their own and so um even then you know we saw we saw things that were going in were definitely going in the right direction. Had had we waited two months it would have been more dramatic right? So, you know, and that and that’s sort of fine. But yeah, you see you’ll see I typically give it, you know, sort of a couple months when get them on a plan, check it two, three months later and and see where they’re at. And then after that, you know, maybe 6 months or yearly or something like that, depending on what or you know, if they are on medication or if there’s somebody they have Hashimoto’s and we’re titrating their thyroid uh dose and things like that, then obviously we need to see it more often than that as well. But um but you can see you can see results pretty quickly. I mean, I would give it sort of two, three months to give it, you know, good good look, but um, you know, I I’ve definitely seen things change much faster than that, too. Yeah, it’s remarkable how quickly it can change. Yeah, leptin takes a long time to come down. Leptin takes a long time. And so, you’ll get leptin resistance first, that will precede insulin resistance, which will precede diabetes, right? And then then they sort of go back in that that order, too. you know, the the blood sugar starts coming down and then the insulin starts coming down and then a couple and then the leptin starts coming down. Then the leptin will be coming down but it’ll come down slower. Um, but it could take I mean I had one lady that she was strict carnivore just beef and water, beef, lamb and water and her leptin was over 100, should be two to five in the units that we use here in Australia and so she was and and they stopped measuring over 100. You have no idea what they how far. Um but then you know three months into it she was down at 86 great but still wasn’t really losing weight but she was feeling better and and her joints felt better. She didn’t have as much pain and these other things were all improved and wasn’t really losing much weight. You know maybe a couple pounds a month maybe something like that but nothing fast anyway. But she was like no this is fine. I’ve read about this sometimes happens just slower for some people and that’s fine. We talked about that that usually people with elevated leptin are usually in that slower burn sort of group. And then after 8 months on a carnivore diet, she came in. I was sort of seeing her monthly and uh she came in, she visibly looked different. She looked much slimmer and sort of got her on the scale and she dropped 35 lbs in a month. Wow. And then the next month she lost another 15 lbs, 16 lbs. And she just kept losing weight until she’s now at her ideal weight. and um and just maintains it. Just do eating the exact same way, just with different amounts, eating intuitively, letting her body tell her what to eat or how much to eat. And and she was she was literally in tears because she’s she says she’s nothing’s ever worked for her. She not eat for two weeks. She wouldn’t lose weight. And um and you know you have these doctors, these idiots or trainers that say, “Well, if you need to cut your calories down to this and if you’re saying that you are you’re not losing weight, well, I know you’re lying and I know this and I know.” It’s like, “Well, I know you’re an idiot because you don’t know. I have no idea how how human biology works.” Um this happens all the time. Happens all the time. And people actually eat less and they lose less weight because it actually slows down their metabolism. There’s this thing called winter that happens every year and you have less access to food. The body has to slow down metabolism so you can survive the winter. And um so maybe these people just you know grew up in Arizona and they don’t understand how that works. But um you know the rest of the world understands that fact. And so she was yeah she said she’d been obese as a child, obese as an adult. She’s never been able to lose weight. Didn’t matter what diet you vegan this and that and blah blah blah. Nothing worked. And then now this is this is actually working and she’s at her ideal weight. She’s never been she’s in her 60s and she’s never been at her ideal weight. Now she’s just so happy and and it’s so easy for her. Yeah. Yeah. Was there a point um for the leptin where it was kind of like a switch where it was like, “Okay, now it’s low enough.” Do do you remember how low it had gotten down? Yeah, for hers it was when she got hit um well when she started losing that weight big time. We tested her leptin then and it had dropped um down to 21. So still four times what optimal is, but I find that that more people will be able to lose weight in that sort of territory on a ketogenic carnivore diet. Um some will still have a bit of a slow burn until that sort of comes down a bit more. But it doesn’t have to get under five. It just it needs to get sort of low enough that your body starts because le leptin is a sort of a keystone hormone. It goes to your hypothalamus and controls the expression of multiple hormones that have to do with your metabolism and that and they stimulate hormones out of your pituitary which stimulate all the rest of your hormones in your body. So it’s it’s right at the top, you know, it affects that whole cascade of hormones coming down from your hypothalamus. And so when when you get leptin resistance, so the leptin is being blocked and blockaded, um your brain can’t see the leptin and your brain thinks that you’re starving to death. Leptin comes from your fat tissue and from stretch receptors, but predominantly from your fat tissue. And so if you your brain can’t see the leptin at all, it thinks you’re emaciated and dying. And so it’s like, okay, well, we need to shut down your metabolism, slow everything down, and then anything coming in, we’re storing as fat. That’s what we’re doing, right? So it increases your appetite and stores more fat and also locks down your your fat and reduces lipolysis. Um, and there’s multiple multiple multiple hormone patterns in that. I mean even MSH we think about that but like um melanin stimulating hormone that you know bodybuilders will take that because a it will make them more tan but but it will also shred fat and that is controlled by leptin as well. So there’s there’s sort of six major things that I focus on with when someone has elevated leptin um things that can block leptin basically and mask leptin so your brain doesn’t know what the hell’s going on. Uh thinks you’re emaciated. Uh, insulin blocks leptin, fructose blocks leptin, comes with sugar, which tends to increase insulin and will block it on its own. So, it hits you twice. Um, alcohol blocks leptin. And then the plant lectins, the plant toxins called lectins will also block leptin. Some of these lectins can actually bind to insulin receptors five times more tightly than insulin. even in ketogenic diets find that ke they’ve actually done these control trials with ketogenic diets that were better for weight loss and health versus every other diet that’s ever been done. But then they looked at this this idea with with lectins binding to insulin receptors and they said, “Okay, well, what if we do a ketogenic diet that’s low in lectins?” And so eliminate a lot a lot of these lectins out. That ketogenic group lost significantly more weight than just the traditional keto diet. Interesting. And so that would be a carnivore diet, right? you would eliminate all lectins that way. And that’s um actually what we we see a lot too. A lot of people go from keto, they get a lot of improvement, lose a ton of weight, feel a lot better, but they sort of just not quite getting to where they want to be. They drop the rest of the vegetables and woof. And that’s what it did. And that’s what it did for me. I mean, I I dramatically started losing weight when I just dropped green vegetables and things like that, you know, and and I was already ketogenic. I wasn’t eating carbs already. And I was dropping the greens and eating more fatty meat that actually, you know, cut out whatever the hell those were doing to me and stimulated my metabolism. But so those lectins can bind to insulin receptors. They can that can shut down lipolysis. That can stall weight loss. Um, but they can also block leptin. So they can bind to leptin as well and make it so your brain can’t see the leptin. Um, cortisol. cortisol will will so high stress, poor sleep, those sorts of things that will raise blood sugar, that will raise insulin, that will block leptin uh independently. And then, funny enough, blue light. So, all these stupid artificial lights and LEDs on our on our phones and computers and all these lights. I always try to use natural light, so I don’t have lights on in here unless I have to. Yeah, it’s like 10 at night here, so I am drowning in blue lights. I know. I’m sorry. Yeah, but yeah, those sorts of things. and um and you know getting out and getting natural light, using natural light, trying to avoid the unnatural lights, putting blue light filters on as many things as possible, using incandescent bulbs, the the filament bulbs as opposed to the the LED bulbs, those sorts of things. Um that can help, you know, that can that can absolutely help. And so, but going carnivore hits four of those right there, you know, and then just, you know, improving your sleep and and and taking care of your light hygiene and things like that. I mean, and then you’re home. And I see people’s leptin just fall down. And when it gets down to a certain certain level, for her it was about the 20s and I I see that a lot that you don’t have to get down to five to start being able to lose weight rapidly. Um I’ve even seen people with leptin over 100 that they could lose weight. But that’s that’s the the exception. It’s not the rule. For some reason, men more often than women if they have elevated leptin, they can lose they can still lose weight uh more often than women can. So there’s there’s there’s there other hormonal Yeah. factors at play there that I that I haven’t, you know, quite figured out. Maybe it’s just because, you know, we’re we can have children and, you know, our body is going to be a little bit more sensitive to making sure we’re not starving to death. That’s what the first I would think of. Yeah. And so, I mean, there’s certainly going to be some sort of some factor there, some sort of hormonal factor that’s that’s triggering in there. Um, some doctors say if your leptin goes over 100, it’s not possible for you to lose weight with diet and lifestyle alone. will have to get surgery, weight loss surgery. And that’s not true. It’s just it has to be a diet and lifestyle that addresses leptin, addresses that leptin and will reduce that leptin. And so I see that I see the people’s leptin come come down, but it can take months and months and months. So like, so again, I like, you know, over 100 and then 3 months in it was 86 and then 5 months after that it was 21 for this lady in particular. And it wasn’t until sort of got to that, you know, into the the low 20s that she started losing weight, but then it really started coming off and now her leptin is completely normal. It’s un it’s like three. Amazing. Well, the human body is remarkable as we’ve talked about several times in this pod. You know, I mean, I think it’s a protective mechanism. The body is, you know, trying to keep you from starving. It’s very intelligent and when you start doing the right things, it just goes back to its set point. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Exactly. and just you we just get out of our own way and let our body do its thing, we’ll just we’ll be fine. That’s also, you know, you even if we didn’t have the randomized control trials showing that that cholesterol was not a problem and actually lower cholesterol, more people die of heart attacks and strokes with lower cholesterol as opposed to high cholesterol and vegetable oils instead of animal fats, they’ll they’ll get worse off. um with the vegetable oils. Um even if we didn’t have those, I mean, just intuitively, if you just don’t eat anything and just let your body do what it wants to do and just reset itself, your LDL goes up, your HDL goes up, your total cholesterol goes up, your triglycerides go down. That’s what your body wants to do. And then you start eating and everything starts getting all broken up. And then we we think that, oh, that’s good. Oh, thank God. Because our body’s trying to kill us kill us, you know. um even though fasting is associated with actually better health and lower cardiovascular um issues. Um so how is that if if cholesterol is the cause of heart disease and when you fast cholesterol goes up because your body wants it to. That’s where your body wants to set it. And yet we’re trying to manipulate it and change nature and say no no no. Nature got it wrong. Bios got it wrong. God got it wrong. No, it’s all wrong. We have to micromanage our own biochemistry. Even though we’ve never had to do that ever. Um it’s um it’s it’s pretty strange. But yeah, it it doesn’t all those things are uh don’t fit with me. But I think that just yeah, let your body get do its own thing. Your body knows how to be healthy. Your body’s supposed to be healthy. All life on Earth is is healthy. All species are healthy. You know, you can have individuals that may have different reasons why they may not be naturally healthy and they may need some help, but overall we’re all pretty healthy and and should be healthy. And so if something’s wrong, that means that that something’s happening to you or maybe you’re not getting the right nutrition or or you’re getting exposed to something that’s harmful. There’s a saying that was attributed Hypocrates, who knows if it’s actually him, but it said before you try to heal someone, first ask them if they’re willing to give up that which is making them sick. Right? Sort of has that understanding that you’re supposed to be healthy and naturally you would be healthy. If you’re not healthy, you’re doing something to yourself or something’s been being done to you. And I think that’s um something we can definitely learn from. Yeah, agreed. Yeah. Um so what are some of the um recipes that you you have for people that are I mean for me I just I just make steaks so that’s it’s pretty straightforward. You’re you’re you’re a steak guy. Um so I have my book right here complete carnivore. Um I have 80 carnivore recipes in here. I actually just released a video today um of an appetizer. It’s a meatlovers pizza rollup. So simple. Um just uh take some some shredded whole milk mozzarella cheese, sprinkle on some some bacon and some sausage, put a pepperoni underneath, bake it for seven minutes, and then roll it up and eat it. It’s all you got to do. So simple. Um I have gosh, I have so many different recipes, Dr. Chaffy. I can’t even think of them right now. Um, lots of different meat recipes. Um, I kind of like to do, um, I made a Popeye’s chicken, spicy chicken sandwich, completely carnivore. Um, that original sandwich has 50 gram of carbs, and mine has two. Nice. The bun is carnivore, the chicken, everything. It’s so good. And then I did um I really like the Wendy’s Baconater, but I wanted to make it fully carnivore with a bun and everything, so I was able to do that. um like smash burgers, double double cheeseburgers, smash burgers with the carnivore bun. And honestly, I don’t eat like stuff where I’m doing recipes most of the time. I’m like you. I eat like beef, butter, bacon, eggs, and steaks. Occasionally some chicken wings. I’m so boring. But a lot of people out there, especially in the beginning, need a little bit of variety if you’re coming from a diet where you’re eating a bunch of side dishes and different things, you know, plants and and all that stuff. So that’s kind of what I endeavored to do with the cookbook portion of my book was just provide as many tasty fully carnivore recipes as possible for people. Very good. And so the Popeye’s chicken was there some sort of breading on them. Obviously not bread but the sort of the the sort of Yeah. crust and things like that. I I experimented with it. So I ended up uh you know pork rind, ground up pork rind you can do or like a pork panco. But I actually liked it better with just um what did I end up doing? I think it was just a hot sauce, which you know, some people are going to be using hot sauce, some people don’t. If you don’t want to, you don’t have to. You can do the the the pork panco breading, but I found it pretty good um that way. So, just depends on what the person prefers. Yeah, definitely. I like I like the pork panco. That works really well for a lot of things. It does. And um it tastes good, too. Um the That’s always a plus. Yeah. Yeah. The the rolls I saw like um bread rolls people made. I think I think I saw it from um actually can’t remember who I saw it first from but anyway it was like basically you know an egg some butter and some pork panko and then you just throw it in like you know the oven or or air fryer or something like that and we actually make a whole loaf of bread. It tasted like just like the best cornbread you’ve ever had because it was a bit of that that crunch to it like the cornbread sort of thing but it was like like meaty and like had this like savory flavor and it was like yeah it was basically like amazing cornbread. dump butter on that as well and then it’s like even better. That’s so good. Yeah, you’re making me hungry. I can’t. Yeah, I was like like my mouth was watering. Um Okay, great. So well, you know, tell us a bit about uh the book as well. You besides recipes, what do you what do you have there? It’s a big boy. It’s a complete volume. So when I u got when the publishers got a hold of me to write this book, they said, “Do you want to write a cookbook?” And I said, “Not really. What I want to write is a complete in-depth guide to the carnivore diet, and I can also add some recipes.” So, it’s both. The first 200 pages of the book are a complete endup guide to the carnivore diet. Um, a gradual carb reduction guide for people that want to do it that way. Um, talk about just so many things to get you started. Um, there’s a whole chapter on monitoring your progress. We’ve talked a lot about blood work in this in this podcast. Um, lots of information if you’re curious about that. Um, just a basic blood test, functional medicine ranges, you know, that you can aim for. Um, and tests like that. I have a whole chapter on troubleshooting. So, on my YouTube channel, um, as as you know, you get comments and questions all the time. And when I get the same comment or question enough, I I’m like, “Okay, well, what can we do to either fix this or answer this question?” So, I’ve taken all of that information that I’ve learned over the past three years and put that into the troubleshooting chapter. Um, so if you are running into issues on carnivore, you can head to this chapter and check it out. Um, and then there’s the 80 carnivore recipes. So, it’s good for people that are just starting, good for people that have been on it for a little bit. It’s good for people like you that have been on carnivore forever because there’s something for everybody in this book. Um, and uh, it was really fun and difficult to write. I’m glad that it’s in my hands now and I don’t have to do any more work on it. Um, but yeah, I really I’m passionate about helping people. I really want to get as many people as humanly possible to optimal metabolic health baseline because if we are all healthy, just imagine what we can do. just the creativity and the ideas and the productivity and just you you feel so much better mentally and physically when you’re healthy. If we don’t have our health, we have nothing. So that’s um I’m really hoping that this book will help a lot of people um get get to that optimal metabolic health baseline. Well, that’s great. Yeah, and I I totally agree with you. I I did a talk called uh the real healthcare crisis you know causes and solutions and you know you talk about any so all we have the problem with the health we need to get the budget we need to do this we need to you know that that’s all aside I mean it doesn’t matter what system you have if you the burden of chronic disease that the growing burden of chronic disease that we’re seeing now is going to sink any system it doesn’t matter um it doesn’t matter you know what you’re doing and what the best system is it will destroy all of them and um Harvard did a a study Harvard Harvard School of Public Health did a study um several years ago where they looked at or a few years ago where they looked at um just five chronic diseases and these aren’t even necessarily the most expensive ones but they’re they’re some of the most expensive ones but diabetes type one and type two cardiovascular disease um mental health disorders cancer and um what was the last one? COPD. Okay. So, not even autoimmunity, not even dementia, you know, any sorts of things. I mean, the top two grossing drugs last year were both autoimmune drugs and uh one was $ 24 billion in gross sales and the other was $6.5 billion in gross sales. Well, Zmpic was number three at $4.5 billion in gross sales. So, $30 billion in gross sales and then you get to Ozmpic at 4.5 billion. Um, so it’s big money. It’s big big money and it’s big money coming out of our pockets and basically we’re turning into indentured service where where a big chunk of our money has to go a taxes 50% of your your income goes to the government. So 6 months out of the year you’re working as a slave for the government and then now they’re taking another 30% chunk out of your of your finances so that you can pay after taxes so that you can pay uh just to stay alive and just to stay functional and things like that. you get these tithes and things like that were just turned into cattle and just generating wealth for other people. Um so they found that just those five diseases that for a direct and indirect cost of just treating those diseases that that cost the world globally um over $8 trillion in 2010 and that’s estimated to be above $14 trillion by 2030. So that’s increasing that’s getting worse. Right. Right. and um and that’s you know taking account to inflation things like that sort of equivalent sort of numbers. So that’s that’s going to tank any system right just that that right there just for those five. But then you have to look at the other other sort of um costs that are involved as well. What about people? They’re sick, they can’t go to work. You know, in the public health care system, people don’t like to talk about this, but in here in Australia, in Europe and all these Canada and things like that, you either pay with money or you pay with time. And here to get into see a specialist, it can be years to see a specialist for the first time. To come in to see one of us in neurosurgery, it’s it’s a it’s a 5-year wait period right now. Minimum 5 years. Wow. If it’s not an emergency Yeah. If it’s not a life or limb threatening emergency, you are waiting. And then you come in and we see them and we try to work you up and try to do things conservatively, try to get some injections or PT or all these other sorts of things. And if that doesn’t work, then okay, 6 months later or maybe it’s barn door, they need surgery, then we sign them up for surgery, then it’s another year or two to get them on the list, right? And so that’s wild. Yeah. So these people are waiting six, seven years, they’re suffering the whole time. And guess what? They’re not working. So they’re on disability, right? So Harvard looked at this and said, “Okay, well what about you know um you know lost income and and lo and losses to the economy due to um disability and inability to work and all that sort of stuff. You know lost work, sick days, blah blah blah blah blah. um you know having to go on disability, not being able to work, all that sort of stuff. That cost the global economy between 2010 and 2030 uh or will cost um about uh $42 trillion trillion with a T, right? And we lost 14 trillion. It was costing about 14 trillion with a T every year just to treat these diseases. and we’re losing $42 trillion dollars from the economy from people being out of work and not be, you know, being too sick and not being productive and things like that, right? The biggest cost was early death. So, you know, someone has a heart attack or a stroke and dies in their 30s or, you know, as we’re seeing more and more in their 20s and you you’ve lost out on their entire lifespan of of productivity. And so the estimated cost for just those five diseases from early deaths in 2010 was around 223 trillion per year in early deaths. And 2030 that’s estimated to be about $43 trillion per year. Yeah. So you’re talking about $60 trillion or so a year that we’re losing just by being sick just from those five. And we count about everything else, you know, you can add to that. So think about that. You free up $60 trillion a year. I mean that those those are sums that are just unimaginably large. Yeah. And I mean you can’t even actually conceptualize how much money that truly is. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And and the thing is is that that that’s representative of people’s lives and suffering and productivity, right? And so you’re putting now $60 trillion dollars of of time and productivity and health back into the economic system. I mean, can you imagine that? Like if we just had all that, if we we had none none of this healthcare, chronic disease issues since the 1980s. I mean, we we would have colonized Mars certain. We would have had we would have had station be like Star Trek in so many different galaxies. Yeah. Exactly. And you know, I mean, imagine about all these very clever people that right now are being taken up with, you know, causing problems and then and then giving a pill for the solution, you know, just that that just goes away. Um, and all these very clever food scientists, these very clever, you know, uh, pharmarmacologists and and researchers trying to find new drugs and things like that. What if they just put that that massive brain power and those resources and energy and finances towards something actually productive and beneficial for humanity? Imagine where we would be right now. Imagine where we could be in in 10 20 years uh if we were able to reverse that. And you know, every single one of those things that I mentioned, those five, cardiovascular disease, mental health disorders, cancer, diabetes, COPD, all of those or at least the vast majority of those cases are diet and lifestyle related. Yep. Right. And we can we can improve these things and maybe even put them into remission or prevent them from ever even happening. I mean COPD, don’t smoke, right? I mean, that’s an easy one, right? That you know that you can fully prevent. You can fully prevent that. And there’s other ones you can as well. And then all the other things, the autoimmune diseases, the um you know, dementias and things like that, you can prevent a lot of that, the majority of that. and and just just imagine like how much that would free up of this intellectual power as well as resources. It’s it’s incalculable how much benefit that would uh provide to the world. Yeah. Yeah. I think about that every single day. Every single. And it I’m very hopeful. I’m optimistic. I think that people want to be healthy. They just need to be given the right information. And that’s partly what this is. That’s what you and I both do on our YouTube channels. You know, we just got to keep getting the message out there and hopefully somebody can hear this and just try it for 90 days and see what can happen. That’s all you have. Totally agree. Absolutely. Uh well, Jenny, thank you so much for coming on. It’s an absolute pleasure. Um I I totally agree with that and um I I love the the sound of the book. You can send a copy out to me and I’d love to check it out. U but that sounds great. you know, getting people started on this, you know, how to how to bridge that gap if you can’t just jump straight into it. Um, if you need to ease into it, the recipes to help you through, I think that’s a great resource for people and I’m really excited for that to come out. Um, where can people find you, follow you, and get your book? Sure. So, um, you can follow me over on YouTube, my just my name, Jenny Midich. Uh, and then from there you can get all my other socials, Instagram, Tik Tok, Facebook, all that jazz. As far as the book, the book is now available for pre-order. It comes out on November 4th. Um, you can pre-order it on Amazon, Target, uh, Books a Million, internationally. I think it’s Brooks. Um, I have all those links and yeah, it’s available for you very soon. Perfect. Great. We’ll put that in the, uh, description. People can can take a look at that. And, um, this should be out before then, so people will be able to pre-order that. And, um, yeah. So people to definitely check it out and and follow Jenny and um see more of her work on her socials and yeah, thank you so much. Really appreciate you coming on. Thank you so much for having me. This was super fun. No problem. And thank you all very much for joining. Hopefully that was helpful for you. If you did find that helpful, please do hit like, subscribe if you haven’t, and send this to someone who you think would uh benefit from that. Thank you all very much. We’ll see you next time. Hey guys, thank you very much for taking the time out to listen to what I had to say. If you like it, then please like and subscribe to my YouTube channel and podcast. And if you’re on YouTube, then please hit that little bell and subscribe. And that’ll let you know anytime I have a new video out, which should be every week, if not more. And if you could share this with your friends, that would help me get the word out and let me know that you like what I’m doing. Thanks again, guys.